Jeff Reifman
Jeff Reifman

The dating scene can be difficult enough under normal circumstances, but things are very tough for straight men in Seattle these days — and Amazon’s growth is contributing to the problem.

That’s the contention of Jeff Reifman, a veteran of the Seattle-area tech community who makes his case in this blog post, pairing census data with estimates of Amazon’s growth in the city.

Amazon’s workforce is 75 percent male, according to Payscale.com. That’s consistent with the gender ratio at Microsoft and other tech companies, as well. The difference is that Amazon has been expanding rapidly in Seattle, now employing nearly 25,000 people in the city, up from 5,000 in 2010, by Reifman’s estimates.

By the end of 2014, Reifman projects, there will be 130 single men in Seattle for every 100 single women — up from a ratio of 119 single men to 100 single women in April 2010.

So how does this manifest itself? Reifman explains what he has encountered …

Over the past two years, I’ve personally found dating in Seattle has become increasingly difficult. It’s less common to meet single women in person and online dating is more difficult. It’s not that I can’t get dates but it’s harder to find women that are a good match for me. Online, it’s been harder to catch women’s attention, harder to get them to schedule a date and they cancel dates more frequently. When we do meet in person, it’s been harder to capture their interest and nearly impossible to find one interested in a relationship. The women here seem more distracted than ever before and at times, I’ve felt like a number to them. Turns out, the statistics back up my qualitative experience.

The bright side: “If you’re a straight single woman outside of Seattle, this might be a great time to move here. Seriously, please move here,” Reifman writes. “Amazon’s hiring.”

See his post for the full explanation, complete with charts that help make his case.

Note: 2014 gender ratio estimate for Seattle corrected since original post.

FOLLOW-UP: Online dating coach: Here’s how single techies can find love

Comments

  • http://stevemurch.typepad.com Steve Murch

    If only someone would make an app or a website that would allow people to meet other people.

    • Alki Slide

      Why do you need more technology to meet someone? Get out of the house, off your computer, and go do whatever it is and mingle. Technology has ruined how we socialize.

      • Seattle_guy

        Technology has all but killed dating in this area.

        • Mandy Sue

          Don’t blame technology. Blame the scared men who use it as a crutch.

          • zawadi

            Dating or courting changes every generation… I do think we need to socialize more though.. and men are more intimidated by females now than they were in the past…. Women are equals now lmao.

            So they gotta act like James Bond lmao

          • shytech

            um that would be the techies, who got to be techies because they were scared to leave the house to meet girls and developed their techie skills instead…………

          • BaldheadedFoo

            and I guess all those NYC women who always complain about “10 to 1″ female/male ratios are using technology as a crutch as well, huh?

  • Sara Stewart

    What is really ruining Seattle’s dating scene are the guys of Seattle!! Make a move already boys!! And yes I used the word “boys” on purpose. Man up already.

    • LaMarcus

      There’s probably a reason they’re not making a move on you.

      • Annie

        No, I lived there eight years with a lot of the time interacting with techie guys. It’s a northwest thing. People are more passive and less confident in social interactions, especially potentially romantic ones. Some of that lies with the fact that sense it is a huge techie field, a lot of these guys don’t spend a ton of time socializing with the opposite gender.

        • SeattleMike5

          Hmm, I don’t really believe this. It’s not a “Northwest thing”. It seems like every tech company is having countless parties, mixers, company games, picnics in addition to the usual company meetings. I think most “tech” guys I’ve seen are fine at interacting with the opposite sex. I think the situation is more in line with what this guy says — there are just far more available guys here, so women can afford to act disinterested and unapproachable.

          • Seattle_guy

            Its not an act. The women here are often disinterested in men. They’re part of the “tech” culture problem too. The trouble is that “tech” culture has come to totally dominate what was formerly a healthy city and all anyone cares about here now is sitting in frontof a computer and interacting with it.

          • Tammy

            Women are generally interested in interesting men. Or interesting women. Either way, you get my drift.

          • Mandy Sue

            It IS a NW thing. I’ve lived in LA, San Bernardino, SF, and here, and the men here are a special kind of timid. And the women are just downright unfriendly. OBVIOUSLY NOT ALL OF THEM, but enough women to make it a frosty town.

          • The Ugly American

            You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.

        • balls187

          Generalize much?

      • dalanmiller

        Look up Seattle Freeze.

        • SeattleMike5

          Which doesn’t exist, but sure, look it up.

        • Sara Stewart

          EXACTLY!

        • BaldheadedFoo

          Austin is just as bad dude.

      • balls187

        Quick, where is the nearest burn center?

      • rusty

        Your the reason why the guys get a bad rep.

    • SeattleMike5

      I think this is absurd. Women in the Seattle area openly mock guys who approach them confidently, and then laugh about it to their friends. If they’re interested, ladies should make more of an effort to show interest in a guy, instead of just sitting there with a table full of chatty friends talking about how dating ‘sucks’ for women in Seattle.

      • dalanmiller

        Hey look, a gross overgeneralization of women. How novel.

        • SeattleMike5

          LOL. A gross generalization, like your saying that this phenomenon isn’t a result of the statistics, but is instead due to the “Seattle Freeze”? Or, do you mean like the woman who said “they’re all tech guys — they’re all kind of the same”? Or the woman who said that it’s a “Northwest Thing” because you’re all socially passive?

      • Seattle_guy

        Its pretty much a disaster here alright! There is a huge gender imbalance and what few women are available are normally very disappointing. I think the City Ned’s to officially embrace bride importation. And yes the women here are horribly spoiled and don’t even have to know it.

        • fatTony

          Then why don’t you move there? obviously you do something that the women here find repulsive, so why stick around? you already know where you would have better prospects.

        • BaldheadedFoo

          I think you solved your own dilemma.

      • Mandy Sue

        Seattle Mike, if that’s really true, then those women are C words and you’re better off without them, but most women, like myself, am flattered when a guy smiles at me or acts like I’m pretty or have something funny to say or might want to go to a movie with me. Seattle women in general are bitches, I’ll grant you that, but not all of us are, not even those of us who say women are bitches.

        I’m thinking youre exaggerating the cackles behind your back just a little, though. I hope so!

        If I were a guy and I approached a woman and she openly mocked me, I would enjoy the opportunity to give her my best zinger. “Oh, really? I’m sorry. I mistook you for somebody interesting and lovely. My bad!” And tip your hat. That’s kind of lame but that’s the idea.

      • Tammy

        Please define what a “confident approach” looks like. I suspect that therein lies the problem.

        • SeattleMike5

          Wrong. We’re often hearing from women that guys in Seattle are too passive to approach them directly. And yet, I’ve seen myself on multiple occasions where guys who are just trying to start a conversation with women get blown off and ridiculed.
          It has nothing to do with the guy, and everything to do with women trying to do what she thinks other women approve of.
          In other cities I think the culture is to talk to people and invite them into your circle to chat even if you’re not interested in dating. In Seattle, however, the culture among women seems to be to self-consciously criticize any guy who is confident enough to go talk to a group of girls. So the conversations end up going nowhere and the guys move on.
          And I’m not talking about the boorish guys who are always over-the-top, I’m just talking about regular good-looking guys who are just trying to be social. I just think that women need to get out of their social groups more and actually talk to the guys.
          But given that the ratio of men is higher here, I doubt that women will feel the need to change their social behavior any time soon.

          • Seattle_guy

            Couldn’t agree more Mike – the culture here is fairly anti-man and this shows up in the freezing and near-comatose interactions between men and women when they do actually try to happen. And yes the women are just clueless when it comes to this stuff, or they exploit it and gloat.

          • Mandy Sue

            That is true, SeattleMike, and that’s why I partly blame women. They are unfriendly if not outright hostile, but they are so to women as well as men. They’re snotty and entitled, and the men have taken it personally and have been beaten down, becoming afraid to approach any woman, but that’s the men’s fault. Rude women should be called out on their rudeness. If nothing else, you’ll walk away from the encounter feeling a little better than taking it personally, thinking there’s something wrong with you (men).

        • dudebromancy

          “Hey baby your looking fine, except for those ‘weird’ eyebrows. Wanna give me a bj? What! No?!? F*cking C*nts the whole lot of them!”

          LonelyAngryMen.txt

          They might just be pissed that their PAU tactis aren’t working anymore.

        • Seattle_guy

          Right Tammy – men here just don’t have the amazing social skills that women here have!

        • Mandy Sue

          Tammy, a confident approach varies with each person, and if I need to drop a step-by-step diagram for a guy, then he’s in deeper trouble with more than dating.

    • Seattle_guy

      American and in particular tech area women are some of the least feminine women I’ve ever met, Sara, you might ask what it is youre asking us to “move” on.

      • Sweetness & Snark

        Yikes. This is a gross generalization.

        • Mandy Sue

          This “generalization” is true, though. So…..

          • Sweetness & Snark

            I work in tech, work on a team full of women who work in tech, and have been managed, mostly by women, in my seven years in the tech industry–and all would qualify as the stereotypical definition of “feminine.”

      • Tammy

        This sounds like another variation of the classic “the food at this restaurant is terrible — and the portions are too small” complaint. I think you need to work on defining your problem to yourself.

        • Seattle_guy

          Definitely, the portions are NOT too small! Anything but!

        • Seattle_guy

          The portions are hardly too small here! But I think that maybe you are one of the women here who enjoys goading men iin this context.

      • seattleBob4

        “Tha women here aren’t submissive enough! they need to lern to act like real ladies!”

        • Origami_Isopod

          Exactly. How dare they not flutter their lashes at everything Seattle_guy says. How dare they not spend their 76 cents to his dollar on lots of makeup and jewelry and fashion (which he’d probably turn around and deem as “shallow”) anyway. How dare they have ambitions, rather than wanting to just stay home and form babby.

    • Alki Slide

      Wrong!

    • Mandy Sue

      I’m with you, Sara! It’s like, lighten up and have some fun.

    • Lee Maneman

      That’s fair, as long as you “Man up” as well sometimes and make the move on some cute guy instead of waiting passively for someone else to act :)

      • Sara Stewart

        Oh I definitely do! I’m not afraid to send a guy a drink or walk up and say hello. I’m pretty outgoing but it is nice to be approached as well. I find it’s always the creepiest guys that do the approaching though.. What’s up with that!?

        • Lee Maneman

          Hahah I dunno, I think many people of both sexes are hesitant for fear of embarrassment or rejection, but the pervs just don’t care. Maybe repeated shutdowns have made them impervious to feeling sad about it :)

          • Sara Stewart

            Nailed it.

        • Seattle_guy

          So let’s see … Seattle men are boys who need to man up because they don’t approach you but if they do they are just creeps!

          In a nutshell, this disposition of yours is why men around here seldom bother to engage with women here, because so many women (like you) seem to have such interminable contempt for us! Throw in the lack of window dressing of any sort and the hormones really don’t take over …

          • Sara Stewart

            Window dressing?

        • Roderick Pumpernickle

          I guess if you’re not interested in a guy it makes him “creepy?” Creepy is where you feel physical danger. If that happens, call the cops. If you think it’s silly to call the cops, you need to reevaluate your own issues and maybe work on your social skills and tact.

    • TechieGuy

      Its because most Seattle men are independent. We don’t need a woman. You can bring up procreation, but we don’t care about that, the earth is overpopulated as is. We can cook, clean, and do our own laundry. We can do what we want, buy what we want, with whomever we want, whenever we want. No nagging required. Marriage and Relationships are overrated. All women do is add unneeded Stress and Drama.

      • Tammy

        If your experience with women is that all they do is add stress and drama to your life, then you probably need to take a long, serious look at the type of women you find yourself attracted to.

        • Seattle_guy

          Armchair psychoanalyze much?

      • Mandy Sue

        Techie, that is a lonely, lonely existence you’ve described there and fooled yourself into thinking is a real life, but have fun. You’ve always got your computer.

        • BaldheadedFoo

          which has really great options these days. I think this is why Japanese guys no longer care and have shunned women. wait till virtual reality goes into full swing. women will be walking around naked and scratching their heads wondering why men don’t even notice.

          • Fred_the_Dog

            OMG, I can’t wait.

      • Origami_Isopod

        Your RealDoll never talks back to you, huh? Glad you’ve got one; women don’t need your shit.

        • BaldheadedFoo

          you just made a good selling point for the doll

      • BaldheadedFoo

        As the popular saying goes these days: the juice isn’t worth the squeeze anymore.

    • Christina

      Totally agree with you, Sara. Being single myself and working in the tech industry in Seattle, I can definitely reaffirm your comment. I also have a ton of attractive, successful female friends who are single and have a hard time meeting men here. Not saying the guys are 100% to blame, but rather than trying to blame it on numbers (as tech people tend to do) maybe they should reevaluate where part of the problem actually lies – they’re not actually approaching women. Seriously, man up!!

      • Seattle_guy

        Has it occurred to you that men may not be the only issue killing heterosexuality in this area?

      • Sara Stewart

        Thank you!!

      • BaldheadedFoo

        and the proven conclusion that women only hear their own voice continues to be proven true…

    • FH

      Yes, Seattle freeze is real. I go months without being asked out, yet if I go to cities like Los Angeles or New York for conferences I get asked out multiple times in only a few days. I think a big difference is the weight placed on rejection. Guys in other cities seem to smile, shrug and move on to the next interesting lady if you decline their date. Guys here seem more sensitive to it, as we can see by some of the men commenting here.

      I know a ton of single, attractive, smart ladies in tech with great jobs, no kids, not crazy, and none of us ever go on dates. Other common theme? We are all in our upper 30s or early 40s. If match.com or OKCupid are any indication, it’s because all the single men our age are looking for substantially younger women. Unless I want to date a guy in his 50s, I’m hosed, and I’m only 39. So men, if you are having challenges, open your mind to ladies your age or older. We rock, and most of us look and act young. :)

      Another idea is to create a Amazon singles or mingle email list and organize activities. Someone at Microsoft did something similar and it worked pretty well. :)

      • SeattleMike5

        This has nothing to do with the supposed “Seattle Freeze”. There is a different energy when you’re on the road at a conference. Maybe you’re more carefree when in a different city, or maybe you’re putting out different vibes, maybe the guys are feeling more free to ask you out since they’re also in a new environment away from home.
        In any case, one or two women being asked out in a different city is hardly proof of the fictional Seattle Freeze. The only reason that concept exists is because of peer influence, not reality.

    • BaldheadedFoo

      The bottom line is that men need to move EAST and women need to move WEST.

    • DisqusTed206

      Girls here are the same. Squareheads… squares. No fun.

  • guest

    More Seattle-ites who what everything done for them. Pathetic. Get in line behind all the whiners looking for VC money.

  • http://www.appsforyoursuccess.com Jeremy J Whaley

    It could not possibly this guys fault at all.

    • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

      It could totally be my fault. I don’t even have a beard. :) i think the bigger story here is the statistics.

      • Dirk

        Did you consider the homosexual community? Seattle has the largest gay community in the country with a 54% male: 46% female ratio. That is an 8% disparity in gender sexuality meaning 10.72 of those males are gay. So the ratio is 123 single heterosexual males to every 100 heterosexual females. That is only a 4% increase over the past 4 years which is a lot better than the 7.5% increase projected..

        • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

          I did mention it in the piece but it’s outside my area of expertise, especially the next level of statistics required to calculate the impact from GLBTQ and polyamory.

      • Joyce Cervantes

        I wish you luck Jeff. She has to be out there somewhere!

        • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

          Thanks Joyce – that was sweet of you :)

          • Sara Stewart

            I heard your story on the Ron and Don show yesterday – pretty awesome! Also, I’m not in anyway trying to disprove your theory, I just think there is more to it than an off ratio. But if what you say is true, perhaps I should move back to Seattle. ;)

  • Jake

    “they’re all tech guys – they’re all kind of the same.”

    Bingo. The pressure he speaks of is on a very specific subset of male, not all Seattle men in general: women who would find him (and his fellow single Amazonians) attractive. The other issue is that his sample size includes new college graduates. I don’t know of many women who would consider dating a 40 year old if they are 22. The inclusion itself kind of says a lot: using the last 2 years as a window accounts for the huge growth of Amazon, but ignores the simple fact that he is now 2 years older. He gets older, but his sample size stays the same age.

    • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

      actually, the data I used was 25-44 yo to exclude the collegiate/post-collegiate pool. and I do think this has something to do with me aging as well … but I think the bigger story are the broader statistics

      • Jake

        Still, 25-44.

  • Roxanne Skelly

    It’s happened before. Klondike gold rush. Perhaps we’ll see “Bezos” girls, kinda like the old “Mercer girls.”

  • Melissa Boggs

    I’ve lived in every region of this country and I couldn’t agree with you more Sara. I’d date a guy in tech no problem. Problem is guys here want a relationship as long as it doesn’t involve real commitment or goodness forbid the word marriage, they are just too busy with their tech jobs and hobbies. This is unique to this city IMO and us women here get jaded pretty quickly in that scenario since we generally like to be connected to the people we date.

    • Sara Stewart

      I’ve lived all around the country as well – totally hear you on this one! Southern or Midwestern men… that’s where it’s at. ;)

      • Slaggggg

        Of course it couldn’t have anything to do with you ladies not bothering to wear a dress once in a while, or style your hair.

        • Seattle_guy

          Or maintain any kind of condition physically, or have anything to talk about besides the same jobs the men do all day, or (etc)

          I save it up for foreign women or at least American women from outside of tech centers, and the reasons why are obvious to most men.

      • montecreto

        You can’t be serious…. As a 29 year old from Italy, even I have a difficult time finding women worth dating, and yes I do look for attractive women, forgive me if I am being too manly. However, I am realistic with dating and A-OK for commitment if the girl is worth it. The real problem is… never mind. I am losing interest typing this up because frankly, I can careless about dating in Seattle. You women bore me to death, and you men are too boyish for your own good. This is typical of America. Such a pity, oh well. As they say,c’est la vie!

        I guess just try and be happy and grateful for being on this planet :)!

  • kzh

    they didn’t factor the extra 10,000 jobs that amazon will be adding with the new buildings for amazon

    • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

      I factored in 24,6669 Seattle jobs by EOY 2014… the NYT says they’re building out for 30,000 = 5% of the population of Seattle. Did I miss something?

  • beowuff

    This is really interesting because almost all the people I know who work at Amazon are married. Of the people I know well, the only unmarried people are one woman and one man…

    • SeattleMike5

      So you know some people who work at Amazon who are married, therefore you’ve determined that most people who work at Amazon are married. That doesn’t sound like a very thorough assessment! I’m having a hard time believing that all of those 20 or 30-somethings I see walking around South Lake Union are married.

  • Andrew G. Gibson

    There are no gay men in Seattle. And definitely none working for Amazon.

    • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

      See Dirk above, for every gay man, there’s some number of gay women. The math just hurts my brain.

      • Brian

        I think the real problem is evident in this thread. Too much analyzing, not enough real life living. Lighten up peeps!

    • SeattleMike5

      I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say. Are you implying that most single men in Seattle are gay? Or most single men who work for Amazon are gay? I’m sure there are some, of course, but I don’t really understand where you’re going with this.

  • balls187

    Solution:

    Amazon needs to add mail-order brides service.

    • ssxsolstice

      Or they could, you know, hire more women.

      • YTD666

        You sound like a feminist. Not your pro-women stance on hiring, but your lack of a sense of humor.

        • ssxsolstice

          Wow. And you sound like someone I never want to meet IRL.

  • Alki Slide

    My opinion has nothing to do with this article but, Seattle is a city that knows how to take away your sex drive that’s for sure. Lots of prudes live here.

  • balls187
  • guest

    This sample size of one might not be all that dispositive. ;-)

  • Guest

    I just got back from a job on the east coast for two weeks and got asked out probably 3 times. I haven’t been asked out in Seattle in public 5 years. I went to a SEC football game and talked to a guy for seriously 15 seconds who scheduled a business trip to Seattle so he could meet back up with me and take me out, but in my hometown, nothing. It’s completely weird. I can even go to Portland and get asked out in the lobby of a hotel, but in Seattle again, nothing. I can’t explain it, but it does exist here. Guys do not ask women out.

    • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

      I wonder if most women would be creeped out by a guy planning a business trip to Seattle to meet back up with them after 15 seconds :)

    • SeattleMike5

      Women in Seattle often say that they don’t *want* to be ‘hit on’ or approached. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard “Ooh, gross! — He was hitting on me! Oh my God! Can you believe it?” After hearing this dozens of times, I imagine that Seattle guys have gotten the hint and are merely searching for dates through social media.

      • Seattle_guy

        Its pretty much a mess here, alright! And women sure are a part of it! They’ve just been allowed to believe that nothing could ever be wrong with them – American women are such sheltered, indulged princesses sometimes!

    • Mandy Sue

      I got asked out the last time I was in LA (outside of LA, actually) and I can’t remember the last time I was asked out on a date here, outside of an online dating site. Something weird goes on here.

  • naturallycurly

    It sounds like the real problem is that tech companies are not hiring enough women.
    I’m not “looking” anymore, but I found the available guys in cities with high tech employment (Silicon Valley, Seattle) to be more passive and cagey. They’d take my number, but call in two weeks (where did we meet again???). We’d date, but they wouldn’t move in for a goodnight kiss at the end of the date.
    The article after this one was “Women over 35 having more babies.” Clearly, women are waiting longer for the right guy and the right moment to settle down.

  • ricrude

    Perhaps ask your Indian coworkers if they know any single women would be open to a relationship with a “fair-skinned” man. But note that this mean marriage, not a casual American style relationship.

  • Slaggggg

    Not all men in Seattle work at Amazon … plenty of them are ditch diggers. Are you really saying with your Amazon job, you are not able to compete with the ditch diggers of Seattle? Sheesh guy, man up. Most women want Shiva. You sound like a whiny bitch.

  • Slaggggg

    Dear GW: You could run this exact same article text in the Onion under the headline “World-Class Putz astonished women aren’t into his whining”

  • David Cooke

    Ummm. So if Seattle has all the boys, were are all the girls? I don’t work at Amazon. I’ll go where the babes are.

    • http://jeffreifman.com/consulting Jeff Reifman

      Look at the graphs in the article – D.C., New York … but I didn’t do an exhaustive census search.

    • Seattle_guy

      Miami is great. Try just walking through the airport there on a layover sometime. Also. Vancouver BC is great.

  • Mandy Sue

    I suspect if men would come out from behind their computers and speak up and start a conversation or ask a woman out, they might be surprised at the response. Dating is difficult only because most men here wimp out. I told my son you’re either an alpha male or a beta, and you either go for what you want or you wait for permission. If you’re persistent in showing interest, that shows a level of confidence, and if you do so with humor, you won’t come off as desperate. It’s called courtship and dating.

    There are a lot of single women in this town and I mostly blame men — while realizing the women have probably beaten them down, but regardless… Step away from the computer and make some eye contact. And don’t get addicted to porn.

    • Guest322

      As a newly single man I have to say that I agree.

      On the flip side, ladies, just because you meet a man who is attractive to you, who stimulates your mind, who really listens & hears, who encourages you…well, I’ll boil it down to this: Some people just believe people deserve to be heard and deserve to be seen as equals, and that everyone deserves to be loved. I’m just trying to meet people and most women want to through down. While I respect your views and your empowerment in sexuality, it doesn’t mean I want to hit the sheets the first time we meet.

      • Mandy Sue

        I’m not sure what you just said and I don’t hit the sheets first thing either.

    • Seattle_guy

      You have a son? That’s frightening!

      • Mandy Sue

        Seattle_dork, why do you like your own comments? LOL

    • Guestest

      “you either go for what you want or you wait for permission.”

      WOW. Date rape instructions. Mother of the Year, 2014.

      • Mandy Sue

        Date rape instructions is what you gleaned from reading my post?? I’ve changed my mind: staying behind your computer is just fine.

  • Guest

    What I’ve experienced as a techie, progressive and lifelong Seattleite dating in Seattle is the women act as passive receivers and participants in romance from day one. What do I mean by that? The guy takes the risk in seeing if there is initial mutual interest; the guy risks rejection of the first kiss; the guy makes many of the plans around dates; the guy initiates conversations around topics beyond the usual and safel. I’d love it if I could date someone that would make plans with me as solidly and consistently as they do with their girlfriends. My experience has been I’m the one who makes and keeps plans like an adult. Frankly, I get tired of doing all the work and so I don’t, but some how not wanting to do all the work fits under this mantra of ‘Man up.’ I think not. One aspect of the complicated dating landscape is that there are a number of guys that don’t want to be doing all the work. Perhaps it’s not time for Seattle men to “Man up”, but time for the women to start taking some of the risks to make dating interesting.

    • ssxsolstice

      Maybe those women just aren’t that into you…? If either party isn’t making an effort, I would think “lack of interest” would be the primary culprit.

      • Guest

        You know, I’ve never considered that. Kidding. Come on, of course, some for sure, no doubt, I know the difference. None of my statements included those experiences.

        I’ve decided many times in dating that wouldn’t be attempting the first kiss. We’ll go on three to five dates, clearly there’s some initial mutual interest, and the woman gets to the point of confused / mildly frustrated because they’ve had fun, but wonder “where this is going?” and “why I haven’t tried to kiss them.” Well, one of my first questions when that conversation arises is, “If you had the desire for a kiss then why didn’t you act on that desire.” Every time I’ve gotten some form of the answer “you’re the guy.” Hmmm… And that’s just one of many many examples of the lack of acting on desires and being passive participants that myself and many guys I know and have had one off conversations with can relate to.

        • ssxsolstice

          Okay. But this seems like an issue that communication and transparency could easily solve…?

          I get that they’re playing a stupid game of waiting for you to make the move. Then you play your stupid game of refusing to make a move until they either say something, make said move, or just stop responding to your calls. And then this stupid game results in a “complicated dating landscape.” And that whole thing just seems, you guessed it, stupid.

          I should mention that I don’t understand the purpose of dating “games” like “playing hard to get”, not making the first move, etc. They’re childish, and I’m not sure why people like playing them. If you like someone, you should act like it.

          TL;DR I don’t really have any helpful advice for anyone.

          • Mandy Sue

            Courtship is a game! Have fun with it. People in Seattle are too damn serious. Taking oneself seriously is tedious and not fun.

          • ssxsolstice

            Meh. I take everything and nothing serious, and I have regularly scheduled fun doing so.

        • Roderick Pumpernickle

          Date 1 should always be simple, just drinks. If you don’t drink, get ice cream, whatever. A kiss is rare because you’re just gauging interest. Lack of a kiss doesn’t indicate failure.

          Date 2, expand it. Go for a lengthy dinner and/or an activity. People seek out red flags here. It’s a pass/fail. A lot of people kiss on this date, but a lot of people don’t. If you’ve gotten this far, they already kind of like you.

          Date 3, invite them over for dinner. If you haven’t kissed yet and they’re willing to be alone with you in your house, they want to kiss you. If they refuse, it means they’re not interested and you should move on. Some people take it slow, but the initial kiss shouldn’t take more than 3 dates.

    • Roderick Pumpernickle

      It’s funny how the more progressive types demand equal pay, equal rights, equal everything (fully justified, we’re all equals), yet will revert back to primal instincts to be the passive one, or “the prey” in dating because frankly, it’s easier. Why make an effort when 10 new guys will approach you tomorrow? Why make an effort when you’ve been conditioned that only “desperate” women make the first move?

    • Mandy Sue

      Boo hoo. Courtship is a dance and it takes two. If you’re doing that much of the work, then ssxsolstice is probably right and “she is just not into you.” Your anger is probably offputting.

      If every time you get the same answer, maybe you should learn from that.

  • Billy Elder

    Try being gay, it might go better for you, lol.

    • Guest

      From what I understand it’s not much better. It’s a bunch of bottoms waiting for their tops.

  • Beautiful

    I don’t know about others but I found Men in Washington state to be very judgmental, if your not a size 0-4 your not getting a date…….. I did however find my Husband online, but he is from the south and loves the thickness so; I think maybe a little acceptance on both sides would go a long way.

  • http://www.thevoiceofreason2.com The Voice of Reason

    Telling that this post generates so many more comments than other, say news-related, posts. Perhaps Geekwire should morph to a Dear Abby site for Seattle. Apparently, based on reader reactions, that would be giving them what they want.

    • Seattle_guy

      The article hits right smack into one of the tenses nerves in what remains of Seattles cultural life, which is the near total iceberg of heterosexuality and the impact of the gender imbalance here. Seattle is a special hell for single people and in particular single men.

  • sasha

    Amazon guys can’t find a date because there’s too many dudes? I don’t think so. Amazon guys can’t find a date because they’re techies. My girlfriends and I can always tell when an Amazon guy is on an OK Cupid date from a mile away. Just look for the self-absorbed baby man rambling on and on about his boring job to the girl with the blank look on her face at a hip but not too hip Capitol Hill Bar. Why anyone would want to date an arrogant, feeble wuss is beyond me. Tech guys are the polar opposite of manliness and just so you know, you can’t hide it with ironic facial hair or a motorcycle. We’re not that in to you. Deal with it.

    • YourIndignance

      I think your lack of interest is great! I would hope those “Amazon guys” would have no interest in dating someone as judgmental as you. In fact I hope no one would be. And please tell us all where the true hip hip places to go are.

    • cdog

      Clearly, you aren’t. Sweety, I hope you enjoy your cats. No manly man would do anything other than bang you with an attitude like that. Go check yourself sweetheart.

    • Seattle_guy

      Point given because you are apparently able to tell the difference between “tech” people AMD normal people, and because you to can see an internet date across the room, and because you too know that the Amhole invasion of Capitol Hill has resulted in these tepid nightspots …

  • sasha

    Amazon guys can’t find a date because there’s too many dudes? I don’t think so. Amazon guys can’t find a date because they’re techies. My girlfriends and I can always tell when an Amazon guy is on an OK Cupid date from a mile away. Just look for the self-absorbed baby man rambling on and on about his boring job to the girl with the blank look on her face at a hip but not too hip Capitol Hill Bar. Why anyone would want to date an arrogant, feeble wuss is beyond me. Tech guys are the polar opposite of manliness and just so you know, you can’t hide it with ironic facial hair or a motorcycle. We’re not that in to you. Deal with it.

  • sasha

    Amazon guys can’t find a date because there’s too many dudes? I don’t think so. Amazon guys can’t find a date because they’re techies. My girlfriends and I can always tell when an Amazon guy is on an OK Cupid date from a mile away. Just look for the self-absorbed baby man rambling on and on about his boring job to the girl with the blank look on her face at a hip but not too hip Capitol Hill Bar. Why anyone would want to date an arrogant, feeble wuss is beyond me. Tech guys are the polar opposite of manliness and just so you know, you can’t hide it with ironic facial hair or a motorcycle. We’re not that in to you. Deal with it.

    • John Caudy

      Fuck yeah!

  • John Caudy

    First world problems!! Hi I’m John and I’m 26. Get out there, mingle, and keep it up until you find him or her. It is so simple if you understand some basics about the American culture. The wisdom of insecurity. The act of wanting something actually pushes “it” away. This place is full of respectful, kind, attractive people that are worth dating and spending the rest of your life with! Stop complaining so much. If someone is a “bitch” or an ” asshole” to you just take it as their problem, not yours! and move on. Interesting correlation and causation article, but our culture acts so easily out of emotions and distortions.

    This thread, as does most a thread regarding this topic, contains so many gross generalizations of women from men. Men: stop this. You have a sexist attitude and then you wonder why a woman CHOOSES not to sleep with you, and cry about it saying, “but I’m a nice guy”. Not the word choose. Don’t try to bullshit both parties by highlighting excuses for the “why-not-me?” question with annoyances such as “do you have a boyfriend?” Or “are you a lesbian or something?” If she isn’t interested JUST LET IT GO. If you can’t do just that you’re not a nice guy you’re sexists and have an anxiety complex around sex. Seattle isn’t the only environment that has this first world problem. To live the USA, one must accept a very puritanical, fear/guilt driven society in the, especially in Seattle and San Francisco: places that are historically liberal which are simply being corrupted by big money and are becoming more conservative, there’s no denying this! Sex has become a psychological thriller here. Add to that the materialistic nature of western humanity and it is no surprise that our mating rituals become a little fucked up, or not fucked if your thinking literally.

    Learn to see when people are bullshitting you. Gain some receptors that are helpful, not hurtful. Believe it or not there are more good people than bad. The right one for you is out there! You first have to love yourself. Our society- especially the sub conscious aspects of politics, school, and so-called professionalism-has trained us to be more fearful of ourselves rather than loving of ourselves. We care too much about what other people think of us, there’s no denying this! Once you can love yourself, the right mate will find you. Let the relationship find you, not the other way around!!

    Johncaudy@hotmail.com

  • guest

    Why is my comment continually deleted? Good to know Geekwire actively participates in censorship. Amazon guys can’t find a date because there’s too many dudes? I don’t think so. Amazon guys can’t find a date because they’re techies. My girlfriends and I can always tell when an Amazon guy is on an OK Cupid date from a mile away. Just look for the self-absorbed baby man rambling on and on about his boring job to the girl with the blank look on her face at a hip but not too hip Capitol Hill Bar. Why anyone would want to date an arrogant, feeble wuss is beyond me. Tech guys are the polar opposite of manliness and just so you know, you can’t hide it with ironic facial hair or a motorcycle. We’re not that in to you. Deal with it.

  • itsalouisthing

    Why doesn’t the title read, “says single UGLY guy”

    • Mandy Sue

      You’re ugly on the inside, where it counts the most. I’m sorry.

  • arroyo con pollo

    I’ll admit, I haven’t lived in Seattle for nearly four years now. I did live in Seattle for nearly 14 years.

    I think part of the problem is geography. Large numbers of straight men and women basically separate themselves on Capitol Hill. I knew many women who (I kid you not) even after living years in Seattle, had never traveled north of the Ship Canal.

    There’s a large “Portlandia” class of straight people who are on Pike/Pine who never, ever, ever, get out of their bubble.

    If you can’t stand the Pike/Pine scene, Belltown’s even worse – it turns into Kirkland on the weekends.

    I can only imagine that the development of South Lake Union is doing the same thing – it’s creating a geographic bubble that’s reenforcing the same Pike/Pine corridor.

    If you’re a straight man looking to get laid, you’d probably have an easier time in a dive bar in Maplewood or up on Roosevelt, than at some Asian/Glutten-free/pilate studio that serves alcohol.

    • arroyo con pollo

      I’d have to add the upper reaches of Lake City Way to that straight man zone. Lots of lonely community college students in them thar apartment divisions.

      • Seattle_guy

        In other words, find actual human beings outside of the infected downtown zones – couldn’t agree more.

    • Seattle_guy

      All fine points from someone who apparently lived here before Amholes took over!

  • naturallycurly

    Could be worse – you could be a Chinese male in China:
    “In 2005 (the most recent year for which this data is available), Chinese men were already having trouble finding brides, with 88% of all single Chinese between 35 and 39 being male. In this same age group, 99% of females were already married.” That’s with a gender imbalance of 119 boys born per 100 girls, which rises to 130 boys per 100 girls in some rural areas.

  • http://theheartographer.com/ TheHeartographer

    See the rebuttal by yours truly here: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/online-dating-coach-offers-tips-techies-struggling-find-love/

    I don’t buy that tech industry gender imbalance is the main dating problem, Seattle or anywhere. There are so many other factors!

  • rebooked203

    When unemployment is high, do you whine and make excuses that there’s too much competition for jobs? I would hope not, because that doesn’t land you a job. If there’s a lot of competition, then you’ve got to step up your qualifications — there’s no “bad market” for the in-demand, in professional and personal life.

  • prettymellow

    Oh my… Back when OKCupid Journals were still active, we would call that a classic BDR post. (B’s don’t Reply) There are plenty of women in Seattle. Not all of them are going to be interested in you.

    • Roderick Pumpernickle

      How do you not understand a 130:100 ratio in favor of single women? Saying “B’s don’t Reply” to his lament is dismissive and ignorant. Even if every single man and every single woman got together, 30% of the men would still be alone. How is that “plenty of women”? Facts are facts- it’s a matter of supply and demand. And if any given woman has 30% more opportunity than the man she’s dating, she’s going to be overwhelmed with options and scrutinize him more. That’s all he’s saying.

  • Rebecca

    Isn’t the real issue that there are too few women in these fields? Why is this still an issue? Women are choosing not to go into tech fields, and a lot are choosing to leave after a few years. Change the culture!

  • Tasie

    Where do I send my resume? I want an interview quickly!

  • 100_people
  • http://www.AlterEgoSeattle.com Marina Lavochin

    Oh boy. Really guys? Too many dudes ruining your game?
    I was walking through the Amazon campus yesterday, and I was shaking my head the entire time.

    GUYS – you’re having trouble dating because you’re LAME. Yep, I said it. You look the
    same, you dress the same (white socks, polos, and dad jeans), and you
    have no personality. You really think that saying “Hi” to a girl, then
    talking about your boring job and your video game abilities is going to
    get the Sexy Smart Fun girl of your dreams???

    Get a
    personality. Learn how to be fun. Stop giving a crap about what people
    think. And learn to be intriguing. Yes – you can LEARN that skill.

    Go do fun shit so that you can talk about it with your friends and
    other girls. Approach women and be outrageous. If one or 10 don’t like
    you or think you’re weird, I guarantee the next 50 will laugh.

    Come on Seattle. Snap out of it! Play the Victim or see the
    incredible opportunity to be Different, and get as many dates with
    amazing women as you want.

    I have girls begging me to set them
    up with men who are Nice Guys with and Edge. That “edge”….that’s what
    you guys are missing.

    I’m a dating coach and personal stylist, helping the introverted shy guys of Seattle. http://www.AlterEgoSeattle.com http://www.MarinaLavochin.com

    • DisqusTed206

      I think every woman in Seattle is a personal coach.

  • Paul Furio

    For women, the odds are good but the goods are odd.

    I don’t envy the single people in this town.

  • Mandy Sue

    Can we be a little more proactive? Would folks who do get out to bars and clubs share their favorite places with us? I never know where to go when I do feel like socializing with strangers.

    I will say, though, that often when I go out alone, with a smile on my face and dressed nicely, I’ll walk into a place and nobody talks to me, often not even the bartenders, especially the 20-something super hipsters. If I were a server and saw a single woman, I would chat her up if for no other reason than to keep her there buying stuff. That happens rarely. When I’m with a few friends and somebody single walks in, I’ll smile and gauge them and more than once have invited them to join us. That rarely happens here, at least with me. So I’d really like to know where to go that’s comfortable where people relax and smile. Ever since The Vogue closed down, I don’t have that place anymore.

    • panacheart

      Seattle is a weird place that way. Unlike many places I’ve lived, you don’t go out to meet people here. You go out with people you know. Nobody goes out alone to meet people here. We only go out in groups here, with circles of friends.

      In Europe or other other places I’ve lived it’s easy to go to a bar and meet people and you end up talking to strangers and making friends. Not here.

      • Mandy Sue

        You are so right, unfortunately. I said so above, that a single person can go out and be alone the whole night because hipsters and others out with their friends keep to themselves. I’ve even seen hipsters working at a bar or restaurant keep to themselves laughing among themselves, ignoring customers, loathe to greet somebody who they probably hate just for being a customer.

        I’m not from Europe but what you say, panacheart, is very true. But I can’t figure it out because it’s not the weather or invading transplants — those are bullshit excuses. It’s the culture here. Unfriendly humorless women and weak men. Chicken or the egg, I don’t know.

        Courtship has changed of course, but it hasn’t changed *that* much in 20 years, and biology matters. Let’s not think it doesn’t.

        The frostiness is everywhere, including very often parents out with their kids. That’s like a bubble you cannot break and get them to chat, sometimes to the point of rudeness, and to me that feels like insecurity and fear. So many people here are living in fear, but of what? Not being cool enough, I suspect. Which makes them uncool. But we’re out there, so it can’t all be bad.

        • DisqusTed206

          yes, I met a couple who had moved here from France. they thought the people must be aliens or something… and that is probably what is really going on, many Seattleites are alien-human hybrids.

  • Ray

    2 things:
    1) I love how this Reifman blames amazon/the male to women ratio for his inability to “…capture women’s attention and interest”.
    2) I love how some of the male commenters are blaming the women of Seattle for their inability to find a partner, and blame the women for the women’s disinterest. Maybe they aren’t interested, because you aren’t interesting. Hmmm…

    And by “love” I mean, “I roll my eyes at”.

  • Micheleh

    I love the assumption that any woman he’s interested in should automatically be interested in him. LOL.

  • panacheart

    I have images of Dilbert dating, discussing algorithms and census data. That six figure job will buy you a nice condo on Capital Hill, but girls just want to have fun. Be fun. Be interesting and you’ll get a date.

  • Origami_Isopod

    Note: Reifman is the same guy who wrote a really creepy article about “cutoff culture.” Summary: How dare that “hysterical” woman who broke up with him refuse to stay in contact with him. By telling him never to contact her again, she’s depriving him of healing.

  • JeffReifmanIsATypicalBoringPNW

    I rode the bus through Amazonland last night and can say that 80% of that 75% of male workers are socially awkward nerds. If you have it in your mind that these nerds are making off with your Princess Fair by having an Amazon employee badge, you’ve already shot your foot. Just because they’re in town doesn’t mean that they’re making off with all the women. The 75% says nothing about their sexual preference either.

    Your dating experience sucks because your dating sucks.

  • http://www.sandira.com Sandira

    Something I keep hearing from other women about Seattle (including very recently at a local tech event):
    The Odds are Good, but the Goods are Odd…
    Thoughts?

    • DisqusTed206

      well, Sandira, it’s both genders. the women here are strange as well. it’s a weird place, somewhere between Twin Peaks and Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

  • Tom DeMoranis

    What Jeff’s statistics don’t account for are the additional jobs that are generated from the greater economic activity of Amazon’s greater workforce and construction jobs. While Amazon’s hiring may be 75% male, the additional work force that supports this enlarged population may be more female. It’s a complicated breakdown and difficult to predict.

  • BaldheadedFoo

    The same male/female imbalances exist in many western cities: Denver, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose, and Austin.
    Austin is so male that even when you go into Walgreens/CVS most of the customers and workers are men. The baggers and check-out clerks tend to be men as well. I once did a count of male to female numbers at a popular intersection with shopping plazas and restaurants in Austin during my lunch hour just out of curiosity. Out of the first 100 people I saw, 77 were men! How many times would you see something like that, unless you were in a High-Tech office complex or military base? I checked the census and men outnumber women in Austin until age 50! 50!!! normally its around 30-35. This is a totally different experience than when I was on the East Coast, which is more heavily female.

  • gseattle

    It is as I suspected just in seeing people around Seattle over time. And the excess males are mostly taller, stronger, younger, smarter and richer than me.

    (Reif, that comment ought to help bring a few more females here)

  • SeemaPat

    I don’t live in Seattle, but I was thinking about moving there for employment. This article and the comments are just depressing to read. I’m a south asian girl (non indian) and somewhat of a techie, but I still like affection and to be affectionate and participate in a loving relationship with a man. I think American dating is awful. It is like a game of chess where you constantly self seek, and attempt to make your partner into a pawn. I’m not sure why all these rules exist for men and women to court in America. It really dehumanizes people and make relationships artificial, as illustrated by the american divorce rate. I think it’s time for me to move out of america to southeast asia. Perhaps, singapore. America is falling apart economically anyways, so job prospects are limited, with such a poor culture that is filled with negativity, living in this country is no longer bearable.

  • Randall Burns
  • Randall Burns

    Things have been worse in Silicon Valley for a long time DC and NYC tend to be chick magnet cities.

Job Listings on GeekWork